A bit of history
I've been sitting on this post for a few days now, but (fortunately) got side-tracked by @Splinterlands and the new opportunities presented by becoming active again.
Then today I read a post by @TheyCallMeDan (@theycallmedan/proof-of-brain-theory-and-further-optimization) about downvotes and a few optimizations that he's proposing... and got inspired to weigh in with my downvote grievances. Yes, they are mostly about my personal experience with and aimed at @Spaminator / @Hivewatchers ... but they do raise an important point: We shouldn't allow a single/handful of people enough authority to wipe out an account.
edit: a bit of a long intro/history, so please feel free to scroll on down to my objection to (and some ideal-world wants re) downvotes.
I joined STEEM having a modest, but still sizeable, following on other social media platforms. Sucking up to sponsors in the real world is tedious, and I saw STEEM as a way for me to monetise my own content without the token rewards and rules of YouTube, extreme costs of AdWords & Facebook boosts etc. etc.
My 1st few (except maybe #IntroduceYourself) posts didn't see any love or attention at all. I tried giving away 10 STEEM (probably ~$40 at the time #RollsEyes) in another post as incentive. A small amount vs the amount I was spending on Adwords & Facebook promotions, so I was still inspired... but alas, I got near 0 activity on even THAT post... tried for a few more weeks but still no joy... content just wasn't being "discovered".
Whales are circle-jerking, and if you aren't a whale you have near 0 chance of joining their circle.
Hey... that's cool... it works the same in real life.
Get over it buddy! ... So I did!
Undeterred, I started @playdice & @incubot to onboard YouTube & Blogger friends. We could all circle-jerk (albeit a much smaller scale than I originally thought going into my blockchain blogging adventure) with some of our VP and 'build outside our community' with the rest.
I "invested" ~ZAR30K into some VP (OK, that's only about $2, 000, which isn't a lot in some currencies, but a fair chunk of change to those of us in countries with weak fiat currencies). But with STEEM at $3-$4 back then... it didn't have NEARLY the impact I thought it would. Yes! I was uninformed, and naive. ;-)
Onboarded 20+ users (0 of whom are active anymore BTW) - They got disinterested fighting to get noticed and being rewarded with scraps, even from the larger curation programmes that were (legitimately) trying to encourage new content creators, and the whole thing faded away.
Actually, I lie, it's just "shelved": I STILL have plans to make this all work... I have a humble real-world influence, and when the time (and environment) is right, I'll have a jump on where I was 3 years ago... and a much higher likelihood of succeeding.
FWIW:
Nowadays, perseverance (and good content) DOES pay off a LOT more than it used to (@wynella has 3X her initial investment for example in just a few months - but she is a lot stronger writer than 90% of my YouTuber buddies :P)... but it's still not nearly "worth it" in terms of time spent (even with the weak ZAR/$/$HIVE exchange)... but it WILL BE one day ;-)
Yes, they COULD/CAN still just copy-paste YT links, use AltYes to cross-post, @dbuzz, etc. etc. and they CAN earn a few more coins than years gone by (that might, nay WILL, be worth something in a few years - but not everyone is as long-term/bullish on crypto as me though and aren't buying it).
So yeah, if any non-Hivers are reading this: NOW is the time to get cracking and Sign-Up here on Hive.
So, while all these angles are 'low effort' (for a deservedly low pay-off), most I've spoken to prefer to "waste their available time" on other social media platforms instead. They continue to promote their content on FB/Twitter/IG/XYZ... and while they aren't getting paid ANYTHING (directly), they are getting noticed and then indirectly being paid by 3rd parties as "influencers"... and this is what I hoped to fix with the Incubation programme I so naively started all those years ago. ;-)
But I digress... 1 problem at a time... So back to my actual gripe:
DownVotes!
Let me quickly make it very clear from the start:
I do not champion the removal of downvotes!
Yes, downvotes are a VERY powerful tool... necessary to curb plagiarism, and even the (egomaniacal, IMHO) @spaminator / @hivewatcher / @hivewatchers etc. accounts DO actually do some good and ARE necessary... even if it's just "disagreeing on vote rewards". Hell, I noticed @OCDB downvoting their own @OCD account the other day (their reason: it was over-rewarded)... WOW! #HighFive
The downvote (power) problem & decentralisation lie
We hear it time and time again how awesome HIVE is especially if you have fringe views & opinions:
BUT THAT'S A LIE!:
While the latter is true, there are 100s of legit accounts that HAVE been censored & demonitised through downvotes and/or demoralised and chased from the blockchain.
Yes, your data itself is still there on the blockchain... but if most front-ends are hiding it and the rewards are 0... then you have been censored and demonitised.
I'm not talking about the whale bullies with fragile egos, but large stake, downvoting because they disagree on personal issues (sometimes even 'punishing' people on-chain for disagreements off chain).
These whales ARE a problem, yes, and one which @theycallmedan 's idea for a free "counter with a free upvote" would probably go a long way to sorting out... Instead, I'm talking about the self-appointed HIVE police that is @spaminator / @hivewatchers
There's too much power in the hands of these egomaniacs
... and others like them that came before and others like them that will surely follow if the downvote rules aren't "fixed"
@PlayDice is 'controversial', I 100% agree!
But if you have a problem, let's discuss it like logical, clear-thinking adults. Which is why, over the last 3 years, I've actively engaged many communities to see if they have a problem with me "farming" their tokens. Some did (so I didn't post in their communities), others didn't have a problem and others even actively welcomed it.
I even had long chats with the original @spaminator creators and got @PlayDice whitelisted.
3 Years later, @guiltyparties et al, randomly, and without warning, decided they don't like it and effectively (and with a few quick keystrokes) demonitised the account.
As a bonus, their misdirected sense-of-power put my main account (and even the fiat sponsor of @PlayDice) onto their "naughty list", downvoting/flagging anything that's posted... just because they can!
... Oh yes, and this happened several days after I paused posting on @PlayDice and started looking for the right people to engage/appeal.
THIS IS THE (or rather MY) PROBLEM WITH DOWNVOTES
A handful of (large) stakeholders determine what is and isn't allowed on "their" platform.
Sound familiar?
Yes, YouTube / Facebook / Twitter / XYZ can (and do) decide what they want and don't want on their platform. It's privately owned and not pretending to be anything else... and that is 100% cool with me. It's then up to me to decide: Do I want to be a part of that (and therefore play by their rules) or not.
The same can be argued for HIVE
They have the largest stake, so IT IS THEIR PLATFORM, and they decide what is and isn't allowed, and if I don't like it I should go elsewhere.
Fair Enough! But is that what WE want for Hive?
I most certainly don't, and many others agree. Many of us discover Hive because of the promises of censorship-resistance, decentralisation and a host of other catch-phrase promises.
The @PlayDice scenario
As Covid took hold here in SA, right about the time when Hive forked from STEEM, I went into 'survival mode' in real life and didn't have the time it needed to port @PlayDice from STEEM to HIVE. I only needed a few days, but a day became a week, a week a month and before I knew it... you get the idea.
I would still lurk about every other day, and I got tons of queries on-chain and off about when I was going to get @PlayDice going on HIVE.
The lockdown restrictions eventually eased up, my Bistros were able to re-open, I could hire some staff back and managed to free up some time.
I'm a retired / ex programmer, so it probably took a few days longer than it should have, but I managed to get @PlayDice running on HIVE with only a few minor hiccups.
Time to demonitise @PlayDice
A few weeks on and @spaminator (& @usainvote who I believe has nothing to do with them) randomly start zeroing all our games. Efforts to reach out to @usainvote proved futile. They haven't posted in forever, and except for a random comment here and there claiming
"this is my stake, I'll vote and do with it as I please, you should do the same"
they weren't/aren't communicating with anyone (from what I could find).
The @spaminator / @hivewatchers crew was a lot easier: They even have a discord server where you can bow down to their superiority, jump through a bunch of hoops, post a massively degrading public apology, beg for forgiveness... and maybe, if they like what they see, will stop their malice.
... but @PlayDice is beyond redemption
They decided they didn't like the game, and that was going to be that. First ignoring me on discord, and then on-chain... I obviously wasn't worthy of their time. If I didn't like their vague justifications, that was my problem!
I protested & tried to plead my case, but when they weren't ignoring me, they simply cut-paste the same thing:
You have been found guilty of vote-buying and since we are both judge & jury we aren't going to bother responding to your pleas. (I'm paraphrasing for dramatic effect).
They finally threatened to ban me from their server and mute me if I continued "trolling".
Trolling in their definition is calling them assholes for responding with a screenshot to a (imho) well laid out argument for @PlayDice. (This screenshot did NOTHING to answer my disputes or even explain their badly-worded 'vote-buying' stance).
Spoiler Alert
Their initial arrogance was met with (drunken) antagonistic posts from my side which definitely didn't help. But hey, I'm not a fan of fake authority, even less so when it's self-appointed and unreasonable.
In short: I was accused of vote-buying, but eventually managed to drag it out of them that their problem was in fact "vote-begging" instead.
Side-Question: How on earth is soliciting upvotes in exchange for a chance at winning MORE than their vote back a bad thing? That's literally the fundamentals of tons of daily giveaways here on Hive.
Fair enough, English probably isn't their 1st language, but then EVEN MORE REASON why the blockchain code shouldn't allow them to be policing and zeroing posts then.
The end is death, whether you want it or not:
So... THEY decided "vote-begging" (in some cases, not necc. all) was not sitting well with them and "no correspondence will be entered into". END OF STORY!
FWIW: The case for @PlayDice
Not that it matters while @PlayDice is on a permanent naughty-list and will now be downvoted to 0 every time it posts a game... but if you're still reading this: Please give me your 2 cents in the comments below.
YES! I AM trying to play the HIVE game and maximise my return on time & effort on the chain.
The mitigating circumstances:
- Every month I use my own (fiat) funds to pay for the server hosting the scripts.
Yes, it's only $5... but that's an extra $5 invested in HIVE every month. The $5 leaves my bank account instead of HBD/HIVE being sold to cover the cost. We should be enabling/encouraging 10s of 1000s of accounts to do the same... IMHO of course.
- I solicited real-world @BraaiBoy sponsors to give me fiat every 12 weeks in exchange for advertising. It's actually a little more complicated since I gave them off-chain value in addition to on-chain advertising in exchange for that fiat (which was then spent buying up the HIVE which the whales were merrily dumping).
- I used my own (@BraaiBoy) funds (fiat & post rewards) to pay for SBI units and other community subscriptions for @PlayDice for the benefit of everyone playing.
- @BraaiBoy (& @incubot) votes FAR EXCEED the minimum required by the game. This benefits neither of those accounts, other than pumping the potential prize pool for everyone and attracting more players.
There are a few more "FWIW" tidbits, but none of these are promised/guaranteed. i.e. They may or may not be a part of the game in the future... e.g. @JimmySauces that cut their fiat funding during Covid as they face their own real world business challenges. They will "continue when things have become normal again"... but that could be another 5 years... who knows!
So, ignoring all that:
Are you claiming @PlayDice is pure ALTRUISM?
NO... definitely for (future) profit. Doing some quick math, @PlayDice has accumulated LESS HP from keeping the non-liquid post rewards than I have spent in fiat alone. However, I believe that if I can create a big enough noise/following that I will eventually & naturally benefit from those users that trickle through and follow @BraaiBoy.
Is this MALICIOUS?
ALSO NO... @PlayDice IS opportunistic, yes... but it (more so) benefits the voters/players.
Voting on each game/post is the exact same as you would in any other competition requiring an upvote/reblog/whatever as entry mechanism. Additionally, with ~0.002 upvote requirement (depending on the HBD/HIVE price) required to qualify for a game, it prevents spammers creating a multitude of bot accounts and simultaneously leaves real users the majority of their VP to carry on with their normal curation efforts - there's no benefit to throwing a $10 vote on a game (unless you feel generous and just wanna give your money away to others... as is the case with @BraaiBoy and @IncuBot ;-))
In an ideal world
To be honest I have no idea... but I do know that pretending to be decentralised while centralising the police is a problem.
Some thinking-out-loud points:
UPvotes:
- limit the maximum upvote(s) that 1 account CAN give to another account on a single post/day/XYZ days.
- limit the efficacy of voting the same account over and over:
- e.g. implement a cool-down for voting the same account. e.g. voting uses up the same amount of RCs for every vote, but rewards a decreasing amount of HBD/HP to @PLayDice if they happen too quickly in succession.
- SEVERELY limit the efficacy of SELF-voting
- similar scenario above, but the "cool-down" time is much longer.
DOWNvotes:
Allow the community to police/vote - but not based purely on stake!!!
- Yes, we need 'downvote champions' (incl. the misguided @hivewatchers etc.) to have a (slightly) more weighted say (built up over time)... but a single or even handful of people's vote shouldn't be able to 0 a post
- maybe incorporate something with a flatter distribution (like the REP system) into downvotes?
- Limit the "damage" a single downvote can do - and even more NB: Limit the damage repeated downvotes can do.
- Would everyone REALLY take the time to vet every post & 'downvote champion' though?
INCENTIVISE (legit) downvotes... and PENALISE incorrect ones (again a community vote).
Feeding in to Dan's "encourage people to do the right thing because it's good for them" argument:- More than X proper flags result in some form of reward.
- More than X false-flags result in a penalty.
Have a "community appeals" process (separate from the original downvoter):
- Like with @PlayDice: I got into trouble/argument with one of the @SteemFlagRewards folks back on STEEM. Hopped on to their discord, made my appeal, made some changes, and even became a champion for IDENTIFYING spammers for them (Yes, @PlayDice IS opportunistic and attracts opportunists as I already mentioned, but it also attracts scammers - and was eventually a great source of identifying plagiarists etc.).
IN CLOSING
WHO decides what's right or wrong?
If the community felt that @PlayDice was BS and detrimental, then I would (sadly) accept my fate and cease posting, but now because 1 or 2 overlords (who randomly changed their rules after WHITELISTING me) changed their minds/rules, I have no choice but to obey! NOT COOL!
What's preventing PETA from buying a large enough stake on HIVE and downvoting all my BBQ videos for example?